On this episode, I was joined by Deena Zenyk, Co-Founder and Managing Partner at The Captivate Collective and the co-author of The Messenger is The Message, a book devoted to the power of advocate marketing. She shares how she explains the value of customer advocacy to skeptics, how the practice has evolved from when her book first came out in 2017, and why advocacy begins even pre-sale. Without further ado, here’s my conversation with Deena.
Margot Leong: Hey Deena, thank you so much for joining us on Beating The Drum. Really excited to chat with you today.
Deena Zenyk: Thanks, Margot. I’m so excited to be here and join this cast of amazing characters that you’ve had on your podcast over the last year or so, I think it’s maybe even been more than a year, so yes. I feel like I’m in very good company. Yeah.
Margot Leong: You definitely have that, right? Like it’s been more than a year since doing this, but it’s been a great experience. And I believe that you do know someone who’s been on this show quite intimately. Liz came on earlier and I was really excited to have you on as well, especially considering the depth and breadth of your experience in the customer marketing and advocacy world. So, you know, the first thing I’d love to just understand is just that sort of 30,000 foot view of your background and your journey into this space.
Deena Zenyk: It’s a great question. I’ll try to keep it short, and like my road into customer advocacy. This isn’t where I ever intended to be. I didn’t intend to be really a marketer or in, in marketing, certainly not working with customers. In the late nineties, I was working as a journalist and was just earning my journalism degree. And of course around the year 2000, things really started to change in the world of journalism. We had the rise of the blogosphere start to happen on the internet and the democratization of the written word and of information.
So I started to kind of have an inkling that maybe journalism wasn’t going to be the fruitful long-term career that I had really, really hoped that it would be. I’m still a journalist at heart. I love everything about the profession. I think it’s a really noble calling.
So when I finished my journalism degree, I thought if I want to stay in journalism, a great way to do that would be to really focus in an area and develop a specialty so that maybe I could end up working for a specialty publication, so not a general newspaper type of reporters. So to get that depth of expertise, I went to graduate school and did a research degree for four years. And my research focused on representations of rave culture and representation, specifically of ecstasy and MDMA and drug use in the media.
And one of the lenses that I looked at this research through was the lens of social capital. How we kind of value each other socially in relation to each other and how we accumulate capital as people. So I went through that research degree and four years later, the idea of working as a journalist was well and truly not going to work even with this deep area of expertise.
So I went out and I got a job and I started as a copywriter at a Calgary based company called SMART Technologies, inventors of the interactive whiteboard that you’ve see in most classrooms and reading. Yes. And so I worked there as a copywriter and I quickly found out that copywriting in that context, it wasn’t very creative. It was a lot of copying and pasting from messaging documents. So that didn’t work very well for me as a creative.
I ended up having an opportunity to look at some existing customer programs that served the educator audience for SMART and just kind of see what I could do with those programs. And so fast forward, 10 years later, ended up managing a portfolio of programs at SMART that were customer advocacy programs. I think customer advocacy first appeared in my title around 2010, as a customer advocacy manager or customer advocacy programs manager, that was my road into advocacy.
There was no guidebook, there was no community. There weren’t blogs or publications or podcasts to learn the craft from. It was really forging a path forward and trying to figure out, you know, what is the best way to engage with customers to drive real outcomes for the business?
Margot Leong: I love you sort of mentioning like forging that path, you’re kind of just figuring things out as they go along, and a lot of that seems to be based off of intuition. A lot of that seems to be based off of: what is good and right for the customer?
You have this book that you co-wrote with Mark Organ, The Messenger Is The Message. I remember actually you mentioning about the customers at SMART, where they got together, it was just such amazing energy. I’m trying to remember when you compared it to, but it was like a concert or a show or just something where everyone was just so excited to see each other and that’s the level of excitement that you want to get with your customers in connecting them with each other.
Deena Zenyk: Yeah, absolutely. SMART did a really good job of supporting customer advocacy budget wise, but also just top down, like all the way to the executive, really invested in understanding that there are many different outcomes that you can drive with advocacy. But you have to kind of at some point, put your money where your mouth is and give back to your customer. So I had that ideal position of being able to do things, like bring 85 educators from around the world out to SMART HQ for a week every summer and just really learn from them, have them learn from each other.
And I can’t remember what I said in the book, but it was like a religious experience, right. You have all of these people coming together that had a common mindset, some beliefs in common and knew each other in kind of this virtual sense. And then, coming together and really being able to give that person that hug for the first time was always a really special thing to witness.
Margot Leong: Yes, absolutely. What would you say that you keep returning back to when it comes to this kind of work, right? What do you enjoy about it? Why are you passionate about it?
Deena Zenyk: I would say that it is such a varied type of position. You have the analytical side of the role. You have the data analysis piece of the role. You have the strategy piece of the role. You have the human psychology piece of the role, and then you just have a whole lot of customer happiness in the role. And all of those things together for my personality just create the perfect storm for me to thrive in. Working with customers who are passionate about the company that you work for, who are open to developing a relationship with you and other people in your company, the only way is up with that.
Taking that and being able to figure out how to drive business outcomes, of course, is the tricky part, right? That gets you into the methodology of how to do advocacy really well. But to your question, it really is just the perfect buffet of aspects of a role, not tied into just being a strategist, not tied into just looking at data all day, but having the opportunity to pick and choose throughout your planning, throughout your execution with customer advocacy.
Margot Leong: Something that you touched upon there, right, is that human psychology piece. You sort of had this background where, you know, you were also doing some research on sort of this idea around social capital. Did you find some natural sort of synergies there in terms of some of your interests on the psychology piece and customer advocacy in general?
Deena Zenyk: Yeah. Like the biggest point of overlap is understanding. that even the folks who are in the background, even the folks who don’t say as much, even the folks who aren’t the first to raise their hands, they still want to aspire to be something more than what they are in that moment, right. And I mean that’s how you build a good brand as well, right? To inspire people to want to be more or dig deep into themselves, to pull out some thing that they wish they were, or that they wish that they had more on display.
In customers advocacy, there’s this kind of fine line between engagement and understanding psychology and manipulation. And you can overcome that piece or keep yourself in check just through your own integrity, like asking someone to do something and taking the data that you know about them whether that’s anecdotal or something that you’ve collected in one of your systems or a survey, and then using that data to prompt some sort of behavior out of someone.
That idea of manipulation has always been a theme in customer advocacy, whether it is manipulating with a gift card, right? Like you have some folks who feel really strongly about not offering rewards or gift cards. The way that I keep myself in check is through what Liz and I at Captivate, what we call the advocacy mindset, which always keeps you focused on what’s in it for them.
We often work with our clients around the value proposition for customer advocacy, whether that is a portfolio of programs or whether it’s a single program or a single interaction. And we look at real value propositions from real companies, you know, white-labeled. And more often than not, half of the value proposition is really about the value back to the business.
Not the value to me as the customer or as the advocate, you know, like a value proposition such as spread the word about our brand. That’s one of my favorites. No, that’s a real templated value proposition in a software platform.
We work with our customers to really nail down, really hone in on what’s the real value. And like, let’s not do the smoke and mirrors. Let’s respect our customers enough to know that they’re not going to get blinded by our marketing speak, right? They’re going to be able to read this for what it is. So what is it that we really are going to offer these people? So that’s kind of step one.
And then step two of the conversation is, and now how are we going to deliver? You know, we were just on a call this morning with a practitioner who raised this point and said, like, we have, you know, a value proposition that we have out there and we don’t have a lot of problem attracting people into the program.
But the problem is I don’t think that we have any processes in place to actually support what we’re saying is on offer here. So, you know, the old bait and switch in customer advocacy is real. Get people into your program by saying, whatever it is, but make sure that you can deliver on those values, that sound like they really are for the customer and avoid those value statements that have nothing to do with the customer at all.
Margot Leong: I’m curious, like if you see this with advocacy where essentially there’s the short term view, which is let’s create an advocacy program, just so we can get advocates and it sounds great. But then you’re not really delivering on whatever the promise is. And that really leads to, I would say like massive churn, right?
Deena Zenyk: Yeah, absolutely. And especially in the age of COVID, I was going to coming out of COVID, but I don’t know more there yet. There was this huge interest in, oh geez. Like maybe we should have been investing in our customers in a real and meaningful way before this happened, so let’s spin up an advocacy program. Like here’s your budget. Go ahead. Go and get some advocates and hastily constructed, hastily deployed advocacy programs, you know, they can have some cool bells and whistles and be that shiny object at first and maybe have a bit of a novelty factor, but unless advocacy has been approached with a real deep level of strategy and a real deep level of being embedded into the organization and having alignment to the top level goals of the organization, it’ll certainly be short-lived or you will have to cycle folks constantly into that program to keep filling it like a leaky bucket, right. You’re always going to have to have more folks coming in to your program to deliver results because the people who have cycled through have kind of seen through the smoke and mirrors of a hastily concocted program and hit the road.
Margot Leong: It is interesting, because that during COVID, just influx of interest around customer advocacy and customer marketing. And my hunch was around basically that paid marketing is generally becoming less and less effective. Like just as a growth lever that you just turn on and off. And so, you know, throwing more money at the issue is basically not working as well anymore, unless you just have so much money to keep throwing at it.
And so, a lot of times, retention can kind of get pushed by the wayside until it becomes like a real problem. And so, basically during COVID, it was like, oh, like we have existing customers, can we do more with them? If you haven’t spent the time investing in customers and you’re trying to spin up, as you said, like a quick win, customers can see through that.
Deena Zenyk: Oh, a hundred percent. Do you remember in the early days of advocacy, how many emails we were getting from companies that you were a customer of in some way, shape or form? You had never heard from them and then all of a sudden you were getting these support emails, you know, making sure that you’re okay out there and it’s 2021. People see through that. I’m a marketer, so of course, you know, I’m going to view things with that critical eye, but let’s just be real, right. If you didn’t invest in the customer until COVID, it doesn’t mean that you can’t do it now. It just means that you really should be careful about how you do it, so that that interaction comes across as genuine and with integrity and meaningful because at the end of the day, a reflection of your brand.
Margot Leong: So there’s this marketer that I’m a big fan of and his name is Dave Gerhardt, and so he talks a lot about, you know, life is too short to work for a CEO that doesn’t get marketing. I think about this a lot with customer marketing too. Like a lot of times, I feel like you’re either in an organization in which they’re like, I’m very invested in the customer. I totally get why we’d be doing these programs, and like here is an appropriate amount of budget to invest.
And then I think the other way is why are you here? Or like, you have to keep proving to me why you exist. How do you explain the value of advocacy to companies that may be skeptical about investing in it?
Deena Zenyk: I think there’s a couple of camps, right? There’s the leader who just flat out isn’t going to invest in it, doesn’t believe in it, doesn’t see the value in it. Okay. Like, there’s that type of leader.
There’s the leader who has the box to tick because customer advocacy is a hot topic and other people are talking about it, so there’s like this superficial focus on customer advocacy. That is typically going to be a really outcomes first deployment of a program. For example, let’s spin up an advocacy program and let’s make sure that we get 50 new referrals in the first quarter.
And then there’s the leaders who get it. And, you know, we can’t expect our executives and our leaders to understand advocacy intimately, right? Like that’s not their role. They have bigger fish to fry, but if you have the right support, if you have the budget, which is almost secondary to the support, because you can do a lot with very little in this realm. If you have the freedom to experiment and if you have the freedom to take off the corporate mask a bit, and those freedoms are going to be driven by a leader who gets it, whether they have the money to invest or not.
And when it comes back to your question here about explaining the value of customer advocacy, the value is going to be different for every company, but the value back to the business in some way, shape or form is about engagement. It is about deepening customer relationships, right? That’s part of your role as a customer advocacy professional, and then creating that intersection between the relationship and then the results back into the business. And then that’s obviously where the value happens.
Margot Leong: Yeah, absolutely. There’s the people that really understand deepening customer relationships and engagement, like that kind of a no brainer. And then there’s some people that are like, okay, well, why would they do that? I’m having enough trouble as it is getting new customers into the pipeline, right. Which is fair, but it was always very sort of interesting to me is trying to explain it in a bunch of different ways, just at different stages of companies that I’ve been at, but I found one way that I did it before was, let’s pretend that, you know, you have a favorite brand in B2C like, you know, what’s your favorite brand? Okay. Apple. Have you ever sort of publicly advocated for Apple before? Like have you told a friend how much you like it and it’s like, oh yeah. You know, I have actually. And so like thinking about it that way is, okay. So imagine that Apple somehow knew, right, or somehow reached out to you and sort of tapped you on the shoulder and was like, Hey, like, we have a sense that you are a big fan of our products.
We’d love to just keep a relationship going with you and understanding how we can continue to improve and also like, thank you so much for just even having decided to purchase us in the first place. And the question is like, how would you feel? And people are like, oh my God, like, I would be so excited. Like, that would be so cool.
Deena Zenyk: Yes. I’ve used that technique, Margot, I’ve used that technique, especially going into an organization where maybe there’s stakeholders from multiple departments coming together. There’s always going to be skeptics. And then there’s going to be people who are just straight up detractors, you know, usually that comes down to fear and some sort of a territorial issue inside the business.
But what you just described, that method for connecting people in their own life, to what advocacy is, is the best way to push back on the typical question from the skeptic, which is, why would anyone advocate for us? Like I don’t get it. Why would anyone do this without being paid? Why would someone be a reference or why would someone give a referral without being paid?
You know, everyone has a little advocate in them. Everyone does. We all advocate in some way, shape or form for brands for causes or for people, you know, whether that’s your child or a friend, everyone can understand advocacy if you just can connect them to their own advocacy in their real life.
Margot Leong: Yeah, it’s the realization too, the spectrum of how different people would like to talk about your product, but it’s like so there’s much more of them than I ever could have thought. And a lot of them were not necessarily the ones that were waving from the stands all the time, right? Like there’s so many people in your customer base that you probably have no idea exist that would probably be happy to advocate for you if you figured out a way to reach them.
Deena Zenyk: Oh, absolutely. You’ve always got that vocal majority of people, the ones who really want to build their professional brand and really want to be on that stage and really want to be intimately connected to your organization and know all the product marketers and the executives. And those people are fabulous. I mean, they’ve got great stories to tell them and they’re ready to step up to the plate.
But there’s all of these other people, all of these other customers who have really compelling stories to share, who are active on social, who are ready, willing, and able to be a reference, who have people in their networks to refer.
And if we get too focused on the noisiest folks or the folks who are so clearly in our view as card carrying advocates, you’re leaving a ton of value on the table. Value for your business and value for them. Part of being a customer advocacy professional is having the opportunity to really make an impact in someone else’s life, in that customer’s life, whether that’s through being a connector, whether that’s through being a promoter, whatever it may be. For me, you asked me what do I really like about this field of work?
That’s really one of the key pieces is having the ability to see other people succeed, especially the quiet people in the back of the room. And I just love the underdog. I love seeing those people rise to the top.
Margot Leong: Yeah, absolutely. And so something I wanted to talk about as well is, you know, as I alluded to earlier you co-wrote a book called The Messenger is the Message. For those of the people listening that haven’t gotten the chance to read the book, I think first off, definitely go and get the book. I personally have found it super helpful when building out my advocacy programs, but even sort of rereading it a second time, extracting even more insights from it.
But what would be great is if you could tell us sort of what that main thesis of the book was like, what do you mean by sort of the messenger is the message. And then we can maybe go into some of the pieces around if there are any things or updates you might add and how the landscape has changed.
Deena Zenyk: Sure. Yeah. The messenger is the message is a play on words from Marshall McLuhan, some famous work, which was the Medium is the Message, media theorist. The messenger is the message really means that what your customers have to say is much more important than what you have to say.
Whatever story that is that you want to get out into the market, whatever that narrative is, engaging your customers and having your customers be a part of that story and have them share your story is really what customer advocacy is about. I would say the main thesis of the book, so it was from 2017. And at that time, Mark and I had known each other for about five years, really felt as though we were kindred spirits, Mark and his early Influitive team. They were the first people that I ever met that understood what it was that I was doing. So it was kind of like I met them like across a smoky room and it was like, oh my gosh, I’ve met my people.
For Mark and I, coming together through those earlier days of advocacy and bringing our thoughts together in The Messenger is the Message, it was meant to be, you know, like a beginner’s guide. Like here’s what you need to know about how to do customer advocacy really well. Here’s a method. Customer advocacy isn’t just about engaging your happy customers and giving away t-shirts and getting people to do reviews or give you referrals. Customer advocacy is a legitimate practice that has methods, that has frameworks and the book lays out those methods and frameworks, so that customer advocacy practitioners could be seen as more legitimate in the work that they were doing inside their organizations.
15 years ago, customer advocacy was a real nice to have. This is kind of like pre SaaS. So the world was still focused on the business, where it was still focused on selling a product into someone and then walking away and then hoping one day that they come back and buy another product.
Margot Leong: Will you renew basically?
Deena Zenyk: Right. So the practice of customer advocacy was quite different in those days, we didn’t have to worry about things like retention and churn and all of that good stuff. Fast forward from that real kind of nice to have position of customer advocacy, Mark and I, like our position was that advocacy isn’t a nice to have, but it’s critical and that moving forward, it’s going to become more so that the world is changing the way people interact with businesses, the way people make purchase decisions has changed forever and customer advocacy helps you to stay focused as a business on driving outcomes and inviting your customers into kind of co-pilot success with you.
So it was a real practical guide. That’s what I’m most proud of with the book. And I think it comes back to my training and career as a journalist to always be writing in the most practical way. So don’t get caught up in using, 50 point Scrabble words. You’re not going to impress anyone with your use of language, but write very clearly and write in a way that anyone can really pick up that book and say, okay, like I see the steps here. If I want to embark on a career in customer advocacy, I kind of have the handbook and that was the main thesis of the book.
Margot Leong: You wrote that book in 2017, so it’s been about four years since. You know, is there anything, like, if you were to add an update to the book today, is there any area that you would focus on?
Deena Zenyk: Oh, absolutely. The book was written through the lens of an advocacy program. How do you build an advocacy program? How do you deploy it? How do you get people to join an advocacy program? So very practical.
What we’re seeing now and what I would add would be the notion of engaging folks in place, meeting people where they’re at. Understanding that there is always going to be some use for an advocacy program and those card-carrying advocates,but really today, it’s about looking across the customer journey, understanding where your customers are at in terms of their happiness with you, and then capitalizing on those moments of happiness with whatever advocacy it is that you’re looking to do.
And when I say capitalize on moments of happiness, I don’t mean going in for the kill every time someone, I don’t know, people like an NPS nine, that’s a really simplistic view of this approach, but more so, how and where can you engage with customers along the journey to deepen the relationship so that it’s not always about getting something out of the customer, right?
It’s still the advocacy mindset. That’s key. But if you have that advocacy mindset, right, which is always asking before you ask yourself, what’s in it for you, you have to ask what’s in it for them. Looking across that journey, understanding what’s in it for them, making sure that your customers are well nurtured and well engaged at the different points in their journey.
We call them opportunity moments. Those are the times when you’re going to connect with some sort of give or some sort of get That would be the addendum to the book is that it’s no longer about a single program, right. It’s not build it and they will come. It’s you going out to where your customers are at? So flipping that script.
Margot Leong: Yeah. And something that I always thought about, right, is this idea that if you think about the full customer journey, right. You have the pre-sales and then all the work to get to the buy, and then after the buy, you have to like, basically deliver on the promise of the customer. Advocacy comes in like way at the very end. I really like this idea of us being much more involved in basically everything post-purchase. The entire journey is the experience. And so making and creating that brand connection at every touch point and advocacy is a part of that, but really like, you should just be striving to create advocates, whether or not they like come out and say that they are like part of your advocacy program, essentially.
Deena Zenyk: Advocacy even begins pre sale. You have someone somewhere who is, has agreed to meet with you. You have someone somewhere who has agreed to give you an hour of their time for a day. You have that prospect who is talking to their boss about why you should go ahead and buy this product and, you know, that’s advocacy.
There’s also the opportunity pre-sale to demonstrate what it’s like to be a customer through the reference process. So using that reference cycle as a way to demonstrate advocacy, someone who’s giving a reference, you know, we would consider them an advocate, whether they’re card carrying in a program or not. Someone giving a reference as an advocate. So connecting them with them with that prospect is already demonstrating what it is to be an advocate for the company, so, yeah, you’re absolutely right. You know, advocacy, isn’t the end point of some kind of journey that ends with advocacy. Advocacy happens everywhere. You know, we call this Advocacy 2.0, this idea of advocacy happening everywhere.
It’s fascinating, right? It comes back to talking about the data and the strategy and the relationship and pulling it all together. And in this new world order of advocacy, that complexity now is that so many people have customer relationships, whether it’s the CSM or the rep or the support person or the community manager or the advocacy manager or the customer marketing manager. The relationships are very multi-faceted between customers and businesses now. So that is this added complexity in the world of 2.0 is making sure that the journey of the customer and the customer’s experiences are always first and foremost. Not worrying about things like silos and ownership.
I told a joke on an event week before last night, I said a CSM, a PMM, a CM walk into a church and the preacher says, Hey, who owns the customer? And in unison, they all say, I do. Right? That’s a bit of a shift these days.
Margot Leong: Yes, exactly. There’s something to that is related to one of the first questions which is, you know, life’s too short to write work for someone who doesn’t understand customer marketing, but do you think that that culture of focus on the customer journey. Does you think that culture of really caring very deeply for the customer, do you think that has to come in top down? Or do you think that someone can come in, look at an organization and say, you know, this can be seeded or this can be connected? Do you think you necessarily need that full sort of top-down investment from your executives to really make that possible?
Deena Zenyk: I think if you don’t have support at the highest levels of the organization, then the trajectory of advocacy and so then, like the trajectory of your career success will be limited, but I wouldn’t say that all is lost. Go ahead with what it is that you’re looking to do with customer advocacy, get those wins under your belt, meaningful wins, like real value back to the business. You know, and none of this kind of like number of engaged customers malarkey, right?
Like the executives aren’t speaking that language, right. But the language that they are speaking is around sales and real outcomes and anecdotes. At the end of the day, even executives, they’re real people. And they operate in the same way that you and I do because we are all human and you really can’t beat a good anecdote, a strong story that can foster some sort of emotional connection to the idea of the customer. With that executive that maybe is kind of ho-hum on the fence, not super bought in, but at the end of the day for longer term success, there has to be some kind of buy-in at the higher level of the organization. Otherwise it’s just a nice to have.
The world that I grew up in in customer advocacy, no one believed in it. It was just a nice to have. It was, there’s Deena, she’s the girl that hangs out with her customers, right. So I didn’t have a choice, but to push that boulder up the hill, even though I had that support of the executive, the organization still didn’t, you know, it wasn’t focused on the customer, it was a different era. So I like that challenge. So to anyone out there who was in an organization where maybe you don’t feel that you have that support above you, like just keep pushing, just keep proving, bring those compelling stories back into the organization. Connect those detractors naysayers or you know, lightweight fairweather supporters with customers. Get them to see the power of relationship, get them to experience that first hand.
I like that challenge. That’s where I come from. I would say today, some folks have it pretty easy to roll into an organization where there’s big budgets and lots of support and everyone rallying around the customer. It’s a fantastic evolution over these 15 years. I’m so proud of where the community is today, and I’m so proud of how in demand customer marketing professionals and customer advocacy professionals are today. It’s kind of like, yes, like legitimising what so many of us have been saying for so many years and so many of us pushing that rock up the hill.
Margot Leong: Yes, absolutely. I think this is such a perfect place to finish out the conversation is thinking about that, right, and the looking forward, as you said into this 2.0 version and that being sort of built in and baked in across the entire journey. I’m super excited.
I think this is the exciting frontier where customer marketing goes. Thank you so much for coming on and it was such a lovely conversation. You know, if people are interested in connecting with you, what’s the best place for them to reach out?
Deena Zenyk: Oh, thank you, Margot. And before I give my details, thank you so much for inviting me and everything that everyone has said about you is so true. You’re just such a lovely person to have a conversation with. So thank you again for inviting me on to just kind of shoot the breeze about customer advocacy. It saves my husband from having to listen to me talk this evening. So from my husband, thank you as well.
Okay. So to find me, LinkedIn is the place to find me. And then also thecaptivatecollective.com is the website or Captivate Collective on LinkedIn is a great place to find me as well.
Margot Leong: Fantastic. I know that Captivate Collective, you guys are always doing some really sort of interesting and fun things. Like I know you guys were doing kind of a jeopardy and gathered customer marketers together, and I know that you run really good events. I definitely encourage people to, to check out the work that you and Liz and your team are doing.
Deena Zenyk: Thanks, Margot. Yeah. I mean, you know, it’s customer advocacy. Let’s not take ourselves too seriously. If we have to work 40, 50 hours a week, we might as well have fun doing it and it’s a fun community of people. So, you know, we’re thankful for all of the folks out there who plug into our wacky ideas and our wacky events.
Thanks for tuning into this episode of Beating The Drum. For more interviews with advocacy leaders and tips on creating customers that will sing your praises, head on over to our website, beatingthedrum.com. If you enjoyed today’s show, please subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts and don’t forget to rate and review us. If you know someone that would be a great fit for the show, I would love to hear about it. You can reach out at beatingthedrum.com. Take care, everybody.