On this episode, I was joined by Lauren Locke-Paddon, VP of Customer Success at Vocal Video. She’s previously worked at companies like TechValidate and SurveyMonkey and came on the show to talk about the shift she’s seen towards increased authenticity in customer marketing. We break down why this is important, what “authentic” content really means and her thoughts on defining the swim lanes between product marketing and customer marketing. Without further ado, here’s my conversation with Lauren.
Margot Leong: Hey Lauren, thank you so much for joining us.
Lauren Locke-Paddon: Yeah. It’s such a pleasure to be here, Margot. Thanks so much.
Margot Leong: Can you share a bit about your background and your relationship to customer advocacy and marketing?
Lauren Locke-Paddon: Absolutely. So I feel really lucky to have been involved with early stage startup for most of my career and from the very beginning, customer success and marketing for me were intrinsically linked. I joined as the customer success and marketing leader at a three person startup called TechValidate, which I think a lot of your listeners are actually really familiar with. And I was involved with talking to customers every day and all of our customers were marketers, so I think for us as a company, it became this very meta thing. We had marketing software that helped people tell customer stories, and so telling customer stories became a very foundational part of our own marketing.
And then we fast forward a few years. That team of five people grows to about 50 and we were acquired by SurveyMonkey. And there, I actually transferred over to doing product marketing full time. And so I got a taste of this world of customer advocacy, customer success and marketing, and then that brings us to now where I’m back together with some of those original members of TechValidate. So we are a team completely steeped in this idea of social proof being some of the most powerful marketing that you have available to you as a company. And now we’re working on a new angle of actually capturing video testimonials and turning those into easily shareable marketing assets.
Margot Leong: I love that you are reunited with the same team that you were at at TechValidate, that must be such a fantastic feeling.
Lauren Locke-Paddon: It’s so much fun. I mean, these are folks that I’ve worked with for over a decade and they’re just fantastic colleagues, so at a kind of personal professional level, it’s been really terrific. And then with the product we’re building, where we’re seeing a lot of really great early results. And so with TechValidate, we were all completely focused on working with B2B marketers, that was a very specific product. And I know from the show, you’ve interviewed some of the luminaries in the customer advocacy and customer marketing world in that space. And now we have this new world where we work with companies in that B2B world and then we also work with small wineries and a hot air balloon company in Seattle and law firms and real estate agents.
So it’s a really fun stage now and just seeing this diverse set of customers that we can work with.
Margot Leong: I think that what’s interesting about that point is that social proof, not just valuable for only B2B, but it’s valuable in every sort of way for any business, in my opinion, right. It kind of proves that out is whether you’re a small business or whether you’re in B2B marketing, like anything where your customer is talking about how great you are directly from the source, it’s valuable no matter, no matter what.
Lauren Locke-Paddon: I think that’s so true and I think that it’s something that is now really well understood that buyers, regardless of whether they’re making an enormous purchasing decision of millions of dollars, or if they’re just looking at an e-commerce brand that they saw an ad on Instagram for, they want to see if what they’re buying is real and what the value propositions that the company is putting forward makes sense. And that’s something this community in customer advocacy and customer marketing, we know that so deeply. But it really is. I think now it’s an interesting thing, cause we’re starting to see companies really get on board with that idea, and also with this idea that you want to put forward really believable stories.
So it’s no longer about just what the script says anymore. We look at Instagram and we don’t believe the videos that, at least in my feed, I see a lot of videos of Instagram type influencers who clearly have been just mailed the product and are like, yeah, this skin cream has just like changed my life.
And you’re like, oh, that seems really, that seems really… maybe, maybe your skin was actually quite nice before that.
Margot Leong: I think there’s this YouTube video that’s compiling all the like Instagram influencer fails, you know, where it’s a very obvious that they literally just got the product like two minutes before and ripped, open the packaging and you can see like the pricing still on it. You can see like the packaging still kind of on it. Their eyes are like looking down while they’re sort of reading from a script or something. And that they may have worked, when that first started happening, but as with everything that evolves, people get used to it or people can see through it.
It’s kind of a perfect segue for what we wanted to focus on for this conversation, which is something that I know you’re very passionate about, this idea of the shift towards authenticity in customer marketing. And so I really wanted us to spend the time today talking about that, but first, you know, I really want to take a step back and understand what does it mean to be authentic, right? How do you define authenticity in the first place?
Lauren Locke-Paddon: Definitely. So authenticity and customer marketing for me is really letting the genuine customer story shine through without regard for the corporate narrative that’s been highly produced, your different value propositions, the pillars. I think in customer advocacy, this means that we need to be fearless about trusting our customers to tell the truth. And I guess trusting that that truth is going to be so much more relatable than anything that we can really make up within a committee of people who are deciding what our company is about.
So with that authenticity, you kind of strike out, it feels a little unsafe and so we have to really give those stories their proper due and bring them to market. And sometimes that means some uncomfortable internal conversations with teams that would like customers to basically pair it back exactly what the corporate narrative is.
And I think on the other side, in terms of bringing that authenticity to market tactically, it just means throwing away video scripts. It means abandoning endless reviews of quotes that have come from customers, reviews of case studies that really take out the essence of what the customer has said in order to focus on a nugget of what we think our companies are about.
Margot Leong: I can see this as kind of a dangerous or scary idea within B2B because we’ve kind of gotten to this point where everything is super polished within like an inch of its life, you know, where you do have those beautiful quotes from customers. You do have the incredibly polished videos. And so, you know, I’m curious, like what do you feel is the value to let go of the reigns here and just let authenticity shine through.
Lauren Locke-Paddon: I think that when we’re genuinely curious about what our customers have to say, it’s just incredibly valuable to the bottom line. So I think that when we let go of our sort of hubris or pride about what our company is about and then understand from our customers, it turns out these stories actually work a lot better than the corporate narrative.
So on one hand, we’re trusting our customers to tell a really relatable story, but we’re also knowing that our prospective buyers are smart and they’re skeptical, and they are looking at us compared to the competition. And oftentimes those authentic stories will convert buyers and get them to the next stage in your sales process a lot faster and a lot more efficiently than the polished narrative.
Margot Leong: I’d love to double click on this idea of buyers being both smart and skeptical. Because I actually use the term like another notch up. I use the term cynical all the time and when I just sort of randomly analyze other brands’ marketing or the way they speak to me, or even just in terms of where I am currently in thinking about how do I want to market to customers, I actually take a very sort of cynical stance on like, eh, like it’s all bullshit.
I think there’s definitely a kernel of truth here in that, right? Like I think it was reading trust in companies is at an all time low. What used to happen with this idea for a lot of companies where you build that relationship from a sales standpoint or that the customer is going to come to you and be like, can I please get a demo and let’s go hand in hand through this relationship. It sounds like that’s completely been turned on its head. People are going to different sources, doing all their homework upfront before they’ll even ever approach a vendor, and I think what also shows us really well is this move towards reviews even, not being too polished.
So like online reviews, instead of all fully perfect five stars, it’s better to have like four to 4.5. And so yeah, I’d love to hear your take on this idea around buyers being smart and skeptical and what that switch is like.
Lauren Locke-Paddon: I think you touched on it perfectly with the five star review. If you look at Amazon and you see something that has 10 reviews and they’re all five stars. It’s just clear that’s not a good product that you’re going to buy. I think that we inhabit this review economy and for some reason in B2B, it takes us a moment to catch up to some of these consumer trends, but I have never in my life used a perfect product or met a perfect person or a perfect consultant. So that focus on the perfectly polished narrative does us a disservice in really communicating what our company is about, and none of us are trying to create marketing that is everything to everyone. We’re really trying to focus on who our specific personas are, our specific buyer, and the idea that you could create something perfect is just totally unbelievable.
In terms of building that trust, sharing the full story of what it’s like to work with your company, you can often create a much stronger sense of trust that’s going to allow that prospective buyer to take it to the next stage of research and find out what your company is really about. Because we have such a limited time to catch the attention of a prospective buyer and actually invite them to learn more about us as companies. I think no longer can we put forward this narrative that it is just complete sunshine and rainbows to work with us, that there’s no challenge or struggle in terms of getting something onboarded or no work to do something. I think by telling a fuller and more specific story, we actually draw people into the next stage.
Margot Leong: What’s funny too, like to bring it back to the reviews is, oftentimes now when I buy something online, a lot of the reviews for products typically now tend to be within the 4.5 to five star range, and so I’ll look at that very skeptically. Usually what I do now is I look for the three-star reviews, I get a better sense of what is actually the middle consensus about whether this product actually does what it says it’s going to do, but also like allows for me to filter out anything that’s obviously spammy or basically fake. And so I’m actually looking now, as a consumer, for the traces of believability, and so I think that as you said, B2B, it needs to migrate and shift in this way. So I think this is super, super interesting, and I love this crossover between consumer and B2B, and so often trends that happen in consumer. they massively affect the buyers and how they think in B2B.
So we’ve talked about what does authenticity mean? I’m curious if you want to speak to some examples about what does authentic content actually look like then, right? Or what are some examples that you’ve seen work particularly well.
Lauren Locke-Paddon: Yeah, absolutely. And I think one thing just to build on what you were saying about the three-star review, for me, it sounds like you’re looking for the nuance and the specificity there. I think if you just read, like, I love this product, it’s so great. It doesn’t tell us anything about the experience of using that product.
And so I think there’s a couple of companies that are doing this really well. But I do want to say my piece. I think that authenticity, especially during the pandemic became this code word for releasing just really low quality, unedited content. You’d see people have rambling conversations with customers on a zoom call and throw that on LinkedIn and no one is going to engage.
Margot Leong: It’s like missing the point kind of thing.
Lauren Locke-Paddon: It’s like the goal was not to just make a ton of horrible content. That’s not what our job is. It’s like people are still going to want engaging content, served at an appropriate time in their buying cycle. And increasingly this does also mean short form content, what that looks like in practice is getting these genuine stories, but to your point about looking at the three-star reviews, really eliciting that specific story that is so powerful in telling your prospective buyer whether they need this or not.
I know that Amplitude is doing this really well. They have a great general customer story page, where they outline the different industries they’re working with, and that’s really, a big part of this puzzle for me is that you can’t just focus on these big brands. So this is kind of like a feel good thing inside your corporate walls is like, oh man, Coca Cola is a customer. GM’s a customer, but the truth is like a lot of your customers are probably not these incredible logos that are completely recognizable.
And the truth is also that those are just not the most relatable customer stories, and so what I liked that they did recently was they did these customer awards and they collected videos that were the acceptance speeches. So they had HBO and they had IBM and Atlassian, but with these videos they created, they really humanized those brands. So they drilled down into the very specific person who was accepting the award. They talked very candidly about exactly how they’re using Amplitude and I felt like they really brought it to ground so they’d kind of bridge that gap. And if you listen to their stories of these people, I think that specificity really shines through.
Another example is, it’s just more of a fun one, CircleCI. I saw that they are doing an ad campaign and their quotes were just so clearly in the customer’s own words. Like one of them, the first sentence was, ” CircleCI is freaking fast and it’s like, they are speaking their users and their customer’s language in those quotes. And it’s not as clear that like their head of brand and their head of PR did not make up that quote. That is something that an actual customer said.
Margot Leong: I really like taking you know, super authentic language from a customer, and then just putting that upfront without pretty much any editing, because it’s a bit of a shock to the system, almost, like it kind of makes you take notice. I think like what scares me is in the future, you know, let’s say that more and more people are doing this then what will authentic language look like when everybody is okay with using things that seem more colloquial, right. So anyway, we’ll cross that bridge when we come to it.
What does this look like from an execution standpoint? If you have any tips on how people can create this content and how to elicit this, how to package it.
Lauren Locke-Paddon: Yeah, in terms of eliciting this, I think it is really moving beyond the customers that we’ve thought of as our base of really great advocates. It’s really actually increasing our pipeline of customers that we can work with. And I sorta feel like it comes down to this sense of trust you have with existing customers to be able to speak to your prospective customers in a really relatable way.
So I think it’s going beyond the big logo, and tactically that might be looking at your customer feedback surveys, talking to your support team for folks that have recently had a good interaction, social media, shout outs, really just making sure that those have a really fast turnaround. Like thank you. And can you do a very fast customer story for us, whether that’s a quote or a video and just increasing the velocity of how you’re actually going to speak to customers and gather stories from them in a more efficient way that aren’t these sort of longer nurturing big stories that we might be used to working on with folks.
Once we increase that pipeline and I think we can all get really a lot more creative about who we’re putting in the top of the funnel and where we’re finding those needles in the haystack for good stories. And then I think it’s, you know, that we’ve talked a lot about already about this idea of specificity. So asking them the questions that elicit the kind of specific stories and drill down into what they’ve had. So whether it’s asking for the metrics that they’ve experienced rather than a leading question that might just feed them your value proposition and ask them to parrot it back.
We have so many forms of content that we can create, we don’t need to be always spending our time developing these longer case studies or beautifully produced videos. I think these short and sweet content pieces, whether they’re the quotes, the really short format case studies, the shorter video style format that’s going to be relatable to the buyers like these customers, I think that’s where we can put a lot more of our resources.
Margot Leong: So we talked about, right, the authenticity is sort of wrapped up in the velocity, right? Not having to have every single piece of content that comes from our customer have to be crazy, crazy, polished, the specificity where it’s not speaking about things at a very high level, but really digging into specific metrics or mini stories about how the product has helped versus, I’ve spoken on this podcast about like how I don’t read case studies. So I like this idea of just getting very specific, and I love this quote about how in the specific you find the emotional. That you find that people actually resonate more with specific stories because the ones that can place themselves in that, it has a lot more resonance.
Lauren Locke-Paddon: One more thing to add on that. I was just a few months ago, speaking with a good friend of mine, she’s got her own coaching business and we were chatting about customer stories that people create. And she brought up the idea of the hero’s journey here. So you have an arc of the storytelling and if your customer’s the hero, there’s always some challenge that they ran into. There’s always something that they overcame. And often that would be like in the journey of deploying your product. But I feel like that’s one thing that we have been loathed to include that challenge or that trouble that someone might’ve had in the journey of actually deploying your product, but it truly makes the breakthrough a much more fun story to read and listen to. And I think it’s also just a lot more believable. So teasing out that moment in the hero’s journey arc as well.
Margot Leong: Yeah. That’s something I haven’t really heard as much before where you’re lifting the curtain on what it’s like to deploy the product. Obviously people will showcase customers all day long, who will say right. It was the best deployment I’ve ever had. And implementation was the smoothest, we got up and running in like 30 seconds. And so, yeah, I feel some discomfort at thinking about this idea of if it wasn’t the smoothest process, what is your level of acceptable, right. For when it comes to the authenticity of that piece?
Lauren Locke-Paddon: I’m still not going to be showcasing the stories of customers who are going to churn. I’m not going to be showcasing, you know, it’s like, there’s a balance here, right? You’re looking for credibility, but the truth is the really deeply unsatisfied customers, you don’t want to share those stories. And I think that’s what’s interesting about reviews right now is I think that people are trying to figure out exactly their level of comfort with them. It’s kind of like a game that we all need to play, but how do we then elevate the stories that are the most interesting about our brand and they really are highly credible and believable.
And those are from a marketing and sales perspective, those are the ones that you want to land on top. So, yeah, it’s true. I’m not going to feature videos from any unsatisfied customers on my website, but I think that making them feel at ease to tell their whole story and then going through an editing process that doesn’t remove all the kernels that make that story so believable. There’s still a balance we want to strike because we’re still trying to sell our products.
Margot Leong: What I’m sort of getting from the conversation, right, is that it’s the fine line and it’s the less polish, less editing out what makes something feel authentic. It’s also just generally like how you package it and the feeling that someone gets. But something that this brought to mind for me was, honestly, I think why references are so valuable is because you know, most of the time the sales rep, we’re not going to be on the reference call with the prospect and the customer. And I think reference calls have something very magical about them, which is that the customer and the prospect are having a very honest conversation. It’s not being recorded.
And this allows the prospect to ask some pretty honest questions and it also allows the customer to answer honestly in a way that is not confined to very pretty sound bites. And I think that’s actually much more valuable then the other way around which is where you’re only presenting a certain polish. If your customers like you enough, it’s not that they’re going to lie and say, everything’s perfect, but it’s actually, the value is more that they will more sort of reassure the prospect that like, not everything is perfect with the product, but what product is perfect. And you know, these are still the reasons why I really love it. And these are maybe some areas of improvement, but if you are willing to live with those, right. The company really does listen to feedback and they put things on the roadmap. I think at least in my experience that actually matters a lot more to to customers then having everything perfect from the get-go. It’s more the long-term partnership and the willingness to work together.
Lauren Locke-Paddon: Yeah, absolutely. And then in our marketing content efforts, how do we scale the magic of that customer reference call? It’s not this one-on-one interaction, which is an expensive interaction to put together. Is there any way that we can draw even just some of that magic, so that folks that are earlier on in their evaluation of the company or that might not reach the tier of our product where we’re actually putting them through a live sales process, how do we give them the real story and the real story from a customer that looks like them. I think that’s another key piece of this. It does mean that we suddenly get strapped with making a lot more content, but if we can make those content assets sinks to actually create them, I think there really is a great scale that can be reached.
Margot Leong: I thought of like a random idea. We were talking about what could be an interesting campaign that that relates to this, but you could do something with customers in which you’re actually asking customers what could we improve in the product? And you actually package that up as something that’s an asset. I don’t know if anyone will ever will decide to take up this idea for their own, but I respect companies that will go out of their way to be okay with that and to show something that’s a bit more authentic. So maybe there’s like something there, you know.
Lauren Locke-Paddon: I love that. And then I think what you would hear in that response would be how far your product actually along the road is like, you know, if folks are often asking for an extension of your existing functionality, and I think it can showcase where you already are.
Margot Leong: Yes, exactly. I love that. And then something that we also talked about right, is that there’s a lot of value, of course it’s creating this kind of content, but then internally, you may experience some pushback. You know, the CEO loves these beautifully produced videos. You get the crew there, you’re in an airplane hanger. You come up with something that you can play at your sales kickoff, right? And so I was curious, how do you think about convincing the powers that be to be open to faster, less polished, more authentic approach instead?
Lauren Locke-Paddon: Yeah. In my experience, connecting the stories that you want to create back to revenue is always going to be the most convincing angle to take. But this is a tough one. I think that particularly in the B2B marketing world, we can be really guilty of creating stories and content that just give us and our executive team fuzzies about ourselves and are not necessarily the types of assets that our buyers need to decide whether they’re going to use our company or competitor. So I think, that kind of marketing 101 adage of stepping outside your company, outside what your particular buying habits are and thinking of who your customer really is, is what we have to do here.
And I have just seen this so many times where insane amounts of money are spent upon getting the story that’s going to make the board of directors feel good, but not actually convert more buyers. So I think our job in customer marketing and advocacy is to really think about what those stories are that are going to convert more of our prospective buyers into customers and what going to generate more revenue for our business, because once you can bring the conversation back to that story. You know, often the leadership team kind of is like, ah, yes, would I like more revenue or like a feel good customer story that makes us look pretty cool and it’s kind of like a flash in the pan for a moment. It’s like, oh, I think I’ll take more revenue.
Margot Leong: And I think this brought up two points. One of them is that where a lot of your buyers now live is social. And obviously the authentic videos are important. You know what you could do pretty easily, right, is to take more of a growth marketer mindset because experimentation and testing is like the letter, right. That’s what you do. And so I would love this idea of taking that experimentation mindset and saying, okay, like, we don’t know if this is going to work. Maybe our customers don’t respond to authentic content or whatever, right. But I think that there’s a way to do both and to test both. Maybe the way this can be signalled is maybe through engagement, at least on social. An easy way to do this is say, okay, we have X amount of budget devoted to, this type of content or videos, let’s also maybe carve out a chunk of that to experiment with these more authentic videos and these make very little to produce anyway. And then I would say like put them on social channels and see what people respond to, look at the likes, but also look at like the comments, what people are saying, the engagement. I think that is a very good barometer for the response that you’re going to get from a prospect.
And I think just in general, if we can think about how we can manage that spend in a way that gets us more return you know, I think that’s super, super valuable. So I love this idea of being more experimental, being more willing to test and not being stuck in this old school idea of, let’s just create the same videos we’ve always created.
Lauren Locke-Paddon: Yeah. And I will say also that mix is important. You know, we’re obviously, we’ve created software that lets you capture these videos and we still, of course, we’re also going to have some budget for the produced video. We spent the end of last year, we made an explainer video and that was not a good use for our software, but also we saw a lot of value in that. So I’m not saying throw away all your beautiful videos, you can have some of those. I’m just saying that in thinking about all the types of customers you have, and all the verticals that you’re going into, creating these shorter format, authentic stories can really serve a business well.
We sprinkled a ton of our customer videos all over our website last year, so we put them on the signup page. We have some stories right on our homepage and we saw a 200% conversion from our website visitors to our free trial, which is exactly the next step we want people to take, so what that told me is, well, that’s great. It’s working. But also that I think people could see themselves in the diversity of videos we were putting up.
Margot Leong: Yeah, absolutely. I love that. I’m a huge, huge proponent for this. Just to take a slightly different path before we wrap up the conversation, something that I hear quite a bit of questions around is you have had experience in product marketing, and I’m curious about how you think about defining the swim lanes between product marketing and customer marketing? How would you think about that and sort of in your experience, who takes on what, what are some of the pros and cons there?
Lauren Locke-Paddon: Well, I think the reason you’re getting so much questions is there really is a lot of overlap. And I’ll also say that I am completely a small company person. Swim lanes become a little bit irrelevant because I can work with my team and figure out where I best fit in. So I’ve worked on projects from sales to marketing, to customer success, to product, and I’m personally most happy when I’m working on the part of the business that is using the maximum of my skillset. So I’m a pretty bad person to ask this, but obviously what you can do at a 10 person company, you need to have much more defined roles at your 100+ person company.
I would say in terms of how they can work together and how they can inform each other, I do feel like product marketing spends a lot of that energy focusing on what the most urgent need is first. They’re doing a lot of research in many cases, that can be really useful in the interaction with customer marketing, because then it gives us as customer marketers, the top priorities of the stories to go after and the top things to bring to light.
And on the flip side, what I found in my experience in speaking directly to customers is that I was really comfortable having that phone call with a customer, reaching out to them, setting things up and thinking about their time as something of value and making sure that I was offering something of value in return to that customer. And that’s something that I think customer marketing folks really need to bring to the table with product marketing, because if you’re at an organization that doesn’t have clear, direct line to customers. I think product marketing and marketing in general can get really lost in terms of why a customer would do a story for you in the first place. I’ve had this experience where I was like, oh, well, we want to celebrate this customer. We want to sit down with them and get their feedback. And I’m like, okay, what’s in it for them. Like, how are we going to help them, either it’s on their personal journey or with their account.
I think that product marketing, they’re interfacing with the product team, we can help define what direction you should run at first. And then the customer marketing team has such a huge value in terms of those relationships they’ve built with the customers who are in your base, but also with how to properly engage with the customer to get those great stories and not just asking them for a favor, if you will.
Margot Leong: I think that’s a fantastic point. And I think that what customer marketing can rely on product marketing for is some of these value props, some of that messaging, but then a lot of times product marketing doesn’t have the time to be able to be the ones that are constantly talking to the customers to continue to round out and sort of embellish or add to those stories. And so I think there’s a lot that can be learned. I think that now for my own journey, I don’t think I realized this until I started doing product marketing myself, which is that sometimes it’s almost too defined at companies where it’s like, okay, product marketing owns the messaging and customer marketing owns the stories and like never the twain shall meet.
Lauren Locke-Paddon: And that’s just pure craziness because the people talking to the customers know exactly why people are buying your product, which should definitely be a part of your messaging.
Margot Leong: 100 percent. And I think what I see maybe too often is customer marketing. It’s like, okay. Deliver the packaged pretty story, but then all the things that you’re doing to understand or speak with that customer don’t necessarily get fed back into product marketing. You know, oftentimes they will get fed back into product with like a voice of customer initiatives. I think what I’m realizing right is now how important it is to just constantly be talking to customers because the story of your product is also evolving constantly as well.
Lauren Locke-Paddon: I think in best cases, I’ve seen this as a true deep collaboration between customer marketing and advocacy and product marketing. Both teams are relying upon each other for something very critical and there’s a high level of collaboration and mutual respect there.
Margot Leong: Yes. Collaboration and mutual respect. The perfect place to end this on. So Lauren, I really appreciate you taking the time to chat. You know, this conversation has definitely opened my eyes to some things, made me sort of rethink some long-held views and gotten me out of my comfort zone on some areas. So anytime I can do that, I consider that a huge win.
But my last question is always, of course, you know, where can people find you if they’d like to connect or just talk to you more about authentic storytelling with customers?
Lauren Locke-Paddon: Absolutely. You can find me an add me on LinkedIn and firstname.lastname@example.org. And also Margot, just such a pleasure to speak with you this afternoon. I really enjoyed the conversation as well.
Thanks for tuning into this episode of Beating The Drum. For more interviews with advocacy leaders and tips on creating customers that will sing your praises, head on over to our website, beatingthedrum.com. If you enjoyed today’s show, please subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts and don’t forget to rate and review us. If you know someone that would be a great fit for the show, I would love to hear about it. You can reach out at beatingthedrum.com. Take care, everybody.