On this episode, I was joined by Rhett Livengood, Worldwide Director of Digital Business Enabling at Intel. Prior to that, he was Intel’s Worldwide B2B Customer Engagement Director and has a ton of experience in the space. We talk about the importance of maintaining a strategic pipeline of advocates, reporting metrics at an operational versus executive level, and his approach to building a customer engagement team at a company with over a hundred thousand employees. Without further ado, here’s my conversation with Rhett. 

Margot Leong: Hey, Rhett. Welcome to Beating The Drum and thanks for joining us.

Rhett Livengood: Hello. It’s great to be meeting here in these times, at least virtually. 

Margot Leong: Yes, these strange, strange times, but I’m so glad to have you join us. First off, I’d love if you could start off by introducing yourself. Can you tell me a little bit about your background and then also touch upon the work you’ve done within the customer marketing and advocacy space?

Rhett Livengood: Yes. I started off growing up in the Midwest in Chicago and actually, kind of grew up on the technical side. So I have my Bachelor’s and Master’s in engineering. And initially came out to grad school to California and then ended up staying in Silicon Valley. So, you know, I guess typical Silicon Valley story at the time, and worked in engineering for only about two or three years and then switched into marketing and then into sales, I’ve done operations, I’ve done hardware, software, services, which I really like.

And about 10 years ago, I was in the services group and we started up a customer reference program and that kind of turned into more customer engagement. We started building things like customer communities and board of advisors and a whole bunch of ways for customer input to come into, not only our products, but also the way we deal and market and even engineer our solutions.

So I’ve spent the last three or four years in our partner team in one of our divisions here at Intel. And  I have been working with the partner teams on their customer engagement programs. And it’s a way for Intel to actually integrate our products into their solutions and then get their customers to be extremely happy and pleased. And then that helps pull our products. So it’s kind of an interesting twist on the traditional role, but based here in Northern California . So there you go. That’s me in two minutes. 

Margot Leong: So let’s talk a little bit more about your current role. It’s kind of an interesting twist on the previous work you’ve done within customer advocacy and customer marketing. What are the similarities that you see between the work that you were doing in advocacy and what you’re doing now?

Rhett Livengood: Yeah, I think in customer advocacy, what we really try to do is come up with a win-win. In the old days, initially the customer reference program, it usually was a combination of marketing assets where we were trying to get – I’ll use the word “an endorsement,” – if you will,  from the customer.

And then on the sales side, you would try to get someone who is friendly, who would say something good about your products to future customers. And of course you would end up burning that person out because you would send too many new prospective customers that way, but I think it’s gotten much more sophisticated where you can use your customers to build communities, you can learn about all kinds of things on how to design the product, how to sell and market the product, pricing, competition, all kinds of things, especially as we’ve moved from delivering enterprise products and, and I work on the B2B side, so, we used to have annual contracts or you would pay upfront.

And now a lot of the models are you pay monthly and customers will come in and try out your product for a few months. And then maybe they leave because they’re not happy. So I would say that companies are really valuing their customer marketing, customer sales teams, much more than they did in the past where I saw a lot of, I would call it fits and starts, where they would hire a customer reference or customer engagement team and then either in the bad times, or maybe they didn’t see the ROI, they would then let them all go. And then a launch would come up and they would hire them all back. And a lot of what I call yo-yo. 

Margot Leong: Ping pong-ing back and forth. 

Rhett Livengood: Yes. I think that pressure to be – you know, communication moves so quickly. If you’ve got a problem with your product or something, you want to find that out very quickly and fix it before it, in some cases, can really cause great trouble for your company, because news just travels so fast. 

So I think this is an exciting area. I think it’s always been there. I think whether you’re the head of sales, the chief marketing officer, or even a divisional VP, I think that customer feedback, customer engagement has risen higher on their priority list due to the nature of our business. 

Margot Leong: I think that you had a great point there, which is that SaaS is so popular now, even a lot of traditional enterprise companies have actually moved into SaaS. If you have customers that are coming in, they have the ability to switch pretty quickly. The inertia is not there as much, because there are also lots of competitors in the space. 

And I like to think about customer marketing and customer advocacy is that you’re thinking about what is that additional value that you’re providing as a company to your customers, so that they’re going to stay with you as long as possible. And at the same time, you’re getting a lot out of it and even acts of advocacy, I pretty much just think of them as a byproduct of continually providing value to your customers. 

Rhett Livengood: Yes. You make a really good point. One thing I wanted to talk about in working with the partners, we used to have very much a launch big bang. We’d work three to six months before a product launch and we would get references and we have lots of focus and everybody would want the assets, we’d launch the product, and then everybody would move on to the next product, and everything would kind of get dropped and suddenly, customer engagement wasn’t quite as important. But I think the big bang PR launch, those are less and less important than it is to be your best every day with the nature of business.

And I think that’s why I’ve always tried to set up one and two year plans. Higher level strategic plans with the customer on where they’re going, where we’re going. Maybe we intersect on products. Maybe we help them out with their launches. Maybe there’s some joint philanthropy efforts, maybe around the environment or special organizations that they want to support that might be in common with your company. There’s all kinds of things you can team with these days that you can end up making news that’s not what I call “artificial” around some kind of launch.  

So I think it’s been a challenge for those of us in customer engagement to really take the time to put those plans together and not be so tactical where you’re just heads down, creating assets or setting up meetings constantly.

Margot Leong: Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s fascinating actually, this idea that you’re basically partnering with your customer for the long-term and you’re actually laying out a one to two year plan. Talk to me a little bit about that conversation, right? How do you even talk to the customer about that. How do you broach that subject? 

Rhett Livengood: Yeah, usually what we do with the partners we engage with, whether they’re small, medium, or large, we try to learn something about what their cadence is. Some of them have strong marketing departments. Some of them have very weak marketing departments and they’re just not funded or maybe they change out and switch between vendors and have everything external. And so there’s not a lot of consistency there. So what we try to do is come in and see if we can work in their language. We learn, what type of documents, do they like one and two page, do they like to do blogs, are they big with engineering events where they have a series of engineering, training types of things, and maybe that’s where a lot of their “marketing and sales efforts” are really through training and getting people to come to these online events.

And then we look at our assets and find where we can incorporate and add what we call our “Intel goodness” into those partner marketing and sales vehicles. So we might set up a demo with them to show off their products. So it’s all really about the partner and their products. We’re really not trying to do Intel brand identification at this point. I think it’s good to separate that out. I think if we’re going to do brand building activities, that’s a whole separate motion when you try to do that and sell your product and market your product and really, truly add value to the customer.

You’ve got to pick a priority. It’s very difficult to be all things to all people. 

Margot Leong: Yeah, absolutely. And I totally agree that the actual point of what you’re trying to do gets diluted if you are trying to try to hit all the goals and priorities all at once.  I really like that you’re sort of divorcing this from the promotion of your own product and it’s all about laying the foundation for long-term partner relationships. It’s the exact same ethos and approach and philosophy that we take in customer marketing just applied to customers.  

Rhett Livengood: Yes. And some simple things you can do for the partners, I’ll use an example. Let’s say you have a blog, there’s a thought leader in your company, and you’re talking about remote worker services, you’re a solution provider and you really want to help out remote workers because of course, companies have been forced to in the current pandemic times to support their workers at home. 

We have a network using LinkedIn Elevate where we basically amplify through our own social networks those particular messages. So when a blog comes out on a certain topic on remote workers, we through our Intel network, through tens of thousands of employees accelerate that and send that out to our networks. So within a week’s time, we can come back with several million people in the industry, they’re target customers for our partners that they wouldn’t have normally gotten and really, it’s very low cost to them, but it’s a great advantage and it’s very measurable. 

Margot Leong: I think that’s a great example. This sounds like a very cross functional role, similar to customer advocacy. If you could talk to how you’ve approached cross functional relationship building, you know, at a company is as large as Intel. 

Rhett Livengood: Yes. And you know, it’s funny. Each company has their silos, I like the word, “silo -busting.” But the thing that we try to do on a regular basis, we’ve got the product teams that are interested, obviously in launching their products, developing their products, getting customer feedback on products, knowing what types of information they want. We try to plan that into the partner and customer interactions. 

So we have a target of go-to partners for product feedback. And we put together a series of board of advisors that are really broken out, around topics we’re interested in and it gives the partners early information on products, but it also gives us early customer feedback before we launch it. And those seem to work well when you keep them small. And we use a combination of face to face and online chatting there. 

And it’s the same internally, when I think about our corporate marketing group, PR has got a certain calendar, analysts relations, folks in the corporate marketing team. Once we know what their calendar is and what type of assets they need, we go through, and as we’re talking to the customers, we find, essentially a list that we’re always cultivating that have good speakers for PR, people that are willing to blog, end customers that are willing to use their name between Intel, the partner and the end customer.

And we always keep a pipeline. So as the groups, sometimes in silos, come and go with their needs, we’re ready to go. So rather than be reactionary, we always have kind of an inventory that we’re cultivating rather than just doing it piecemeal or or in a 911 fashion. And it takes discipline to do that because a lot of people are like, well, why should I waste my time cultivating this relationship and creating these assets when no one’s asking for them. Well, they’re not asking for them today, but it’s good to get them stockpiled. So that’s what we’ve tried to do. And it does involve us aligning and really measuring the program with other people’s measurements.

But I found that that’s a good way to grow the group. And it’s also a good way to ensure that what you’re creating from customer engagement really can be used by the other partner groups, as you mentioned, throughout the company. 

Margot Leong: Got it. So it sounds like something that you would potentially recommend to someone that’s building out a customer marketing program from scratch or coming into a larger company and taking over a position is really understanding what are all the different teams that I would be working with and then trying to upfront get an understanding of what are the things that they need in the short term and the long term. 

Because I completely agree. There’s nothing worse than that feeling, right, of sweating bullets when you have a last minute request and being like, Oh my gosh, where do I find this customer? And there’s so many machinations that have to happen in order to get a good customer reference. And so I’m totally the same way as that, I just want to constantly be talking to customers and future anticipating what needs might be out there, because that pays dividends for the future.

You just don’t want to be caught in that reactive mode because the more time you spend being reactive, the less time you can spend also proactively heading off future fire drill requests, because you’re always working on building up that pipeline.

Rhett Livengood:    Yeah. A concrete example of that would be maybe the customer engagement team has a goal of getting so many videos, blogs, customers into the program, creating assets or being sales references. That’s more of the tactical day to day stuff. That’s not the things we want to report back to our partner organizations.  

When we go into the marketing teams right now, I mean, everybody would love to have the frontline, remote workers, maybe somebody in the healthcare industry that’s really fighting COVID-19 – those stories are golden right now, right? So we’re obviously looking for those and trying to cultivate those stories, so we’re ready to go because we know that’s what people are looking for now. And then we go to the sales folks and rather than going to sales and saying, Oh, you know, we want to take credit for all these customers you brought in for your sales. We know taking credit for sales numbers just never works out well. ‘

So instead, what we’ve done is we have measured the decrease in time it takes for the sale or for the customer to move through the sales pipeline. And we can show that the customers that have been in our customer engagement program close X months earlier. And when the sales VPs see that kind of information, then you can easily show your value there and you don’t have to compete with sales and you also speak sales languages, right? The old time to money or time to dollars is something that resonates. So I think you don’t have to be too original in your plans if you just speak the languages of your partners, it really helps the program. 

Margot Leong: Yeah, I wanted to dig into that specific metric, it’s the basically how much more quickly does the customer move into being closed won as a result of being part of the customer engagement program. Are we talking about it from a partner standpoint?  

Rhett Livengood: Yeah. So even though my team works with the partners, the partners have pipelines of end customers themselves. 

Margot Leong: Got it. 

Rhett Livengood: Which, you know, they’re selling, in this case, services to the end  customers and of course our end customers are buying their products as well. So the Intel sales folks are also calling on these same end users. So in the sense we’re getting information, whether or not we have an Intel sales person covering the account, we can go back to sales and show these sales pipelines by scaling through these partners. So that that’s how we do it. 

Margot Leong: Got it. And so then you’re basically comparing the average time it takes for a customer to close versus the time it takes for someone in your engagement program to close.

Rhett Livengood: That’s right. And it’s really easy to measure that these days. I mean, in the old days, you probably would have to do it manually, but nowadays with Salesforce and all the metrics and stages of engagement and all that stuff, you’d be surprised you can get pretty good measurements on that and not really tax the team that much.

Margot Leong: I think that metrics is a great place to focus on for this conversation because metrics is one of the hardest things for customer marketing to measure. And so what I wanted to understand, first you mentioned taking credit for sales numbers never goes well. Can you talk to me about that and your experience there?

Rhett Livengood: Yes. With the partner teams, what we do each year as we’re doing our planning process is we get a copy of the metrics and we don’t need the exact numbers. We just need to know what’s being measured. So we know that in Salesforce or whatever system you might be using, many different sales and marketing folks touch a different project with the customer. There’s a lot of people involved. 

Sales, at the end of the day, is going to get credit for closing that deal. And it’s either in revenue or in units or something like that. So rather than compete on that metric and try to say, well, the partner team engaged on 80% of those and we helped bring them in. Instead, what we try to do is we try to accelerate the closing and that’s something that helps sales, right? Because that allows them to get rewarded and recognized quicker, which is good for them. And it’s also good for us because people see value and adding more resources into our program to move the machine ahead faster. We’ve really tried to look at the metrics and what can we do for the metrics to accelerate them. 

Same thing for corporate marketing, they’ve got a big campaign. Let’s say it’s around remote workers this year. Bringing in references that are not remote workers are probably not going to get a lot of attention from the marketing team, right? So we need to shift, we need to get up front and get out there and start working with customers that are doing a lot in remote worker space and that’s how you do it. You’ve just got to stay very close to your internal customers and speak in their language. So again, without competing with them, you don’t go into the marketing group and say, well, we gave all the end customer references and we basically saved your bacon. That might be true, but I think making them look good and giving them content so they can build their messaging and show end customers and do PR and AR that has some depth, that’s the win.

Margot Leong: Got it. Another question that I had was especially for a company as large as Intel and you have a ton of customers, I can imagine that there’s actually no shortage of customers that probably want to get featured. There’s probably no shortage of requests from sales saying, hey, like we would love for this customer to get featured. How do you end up choosing which customers to spend the time and effort in? 

Rhett Livengood: Yeah. So what we ended up doing is in working with sales, rather than just casting a wide net, we do planning to balance things. We know what products are going to be launched during the year, we kind of know what the marketing needs are in which areas, whether that’s a vertical or a product line, and then we try to balance things throughout the country. So we don’t have, for instance, all U.S. References and nothing for China or Germany or Japan or Saudi Arabia. 

And then what we do is in teaming with sales, they have part of their quotas is maybe one or two of the salespeople in each one of the groups maybe once a year will be tasked to bring in a reference as part of their objectives. Obviously, they have hard revenue goals and then they’ve got a list of objectives they have to hit, and we really try to map out throughout the different regions to pull in those customers so we can align them. And it does take some work upfront, but doing that type of planning is how you do it. So you don’t end up with a hundred customers wanting to talk about something and you only need five and then zero for another of the 15 or 20 categories. So that’s how we do it. We manage it that way.

Margot Leong: You mentioned that part of the sales quota is bringing in a customer reference. Is that something that has always been around ever since you were at Intel? Or was that something that you had to lobby or work on with the sales team to get that as one of their incentives?

Rhett Livengood: Yeah. So when I came in and took over the program, we started with what I call “the friendly salespeople” that just did it anyway. And as their management saw success, then we were able to get friendly regions and friendly countries to do it. And then over a matter of time, we got it across the board. 

So it definitely takes time, but you can start with what I call your friends out in the field and I use the word, “deputize” them. They kind of become deputy members of your team and the way we shine a spotlight and get other sales folks to really like the program is, we use some of our time to highlight each month one of their customers and then we do a story on them and we highlight it and put it up on the awards site that goes out to all 5,000 of our sales and marketing folks, so they get highlighted every month. And of course that recognition is more coveted and it doesn’t cost anything. You just simply recognize their good work. In general, sales likes a good, you know, a lot of competition there, so, it seemed to have worked well, but that’s why if you’re a one person show or you’ve got a few people in your group, you can do a program like this without spending much money or much time at all. 

Margot Leong: Got it. I love what you said about giving recognition to the sales person and their customer. I know that during your time running customer advocacy and engagement at Intel, I think you had about a five-person team. What were the responsibilities and roles there? 

Rhett Livengood: Yes. So we basically at the time had four geographies, so we had the Americas, Europe, Middle East, and Africa as the second one. We had China broken out separately because they’re so large and so different in many ways. And then we had the rest of Asia Pacific and Japan as our fourth.

So that was the team of four. And then there was a manager and I think we had one person part-time that would really handle a lot of the social media and each person ran what I call a kind of a hub and a spoke. So they would spend their time syncing with sales, with the local geography marketing, delivering the assets. And then the spoke part was they each hired external agencies to do reference generation, videos. They would run their local board of advisors. And by using all of these vendors, which were usually best in class in the various countries, it allowed them to spend their time working to make the program more strategic versus just themselves doing all the work of producing the assets or coordinating the sales reference calls or whatever. You need to have a budget, so that’s how we did it. 

Margot Leong: Got it. So it was basically similar to like a field marketing manager. Each person was their own region manager, and then they worked with external agencies and vendors to help them to put together what was needed. 

Rhett Livengood: Yes, that’s correct. That’s how you do it. 

 Margot Leong: Okay. Got it.  You know, we had mentioned one really helpful metric, which is acceleration of the pipeline for engaged customers. What were some other metrics that you use to report out at an executive level?

 Rhett Livengood: Yeah, so the executive level metrics, at the end of the day, if you look at the company level, there are customer success scores and customer satisfaction, I guess if you will, and there, you can measure them zero through 10, and obviously you want your customers delighted and there’s all kinds of things that go into that: products, shipping time, what they feel about you as a company. So we try to really make sure our customers are delighted and keep them delighted. And the ones that aren’t delighted, how do we move them on a path to make them more happy. So that’s one of the big customer satisfaction metrics. 

There’s obviously the revenue metrics at the highest level, you know, how are the bookings and billings going? How’s the revenue picture going? Specifically growth in new areas that we’re trying to focus on. Are we spending the time getting references in the difficult areas or are we falling back and focusing our references on customers on our old friends, on areas that we probably don’t need to reference as much and that’s working better and more successful. So that’s another thing to do to tie yourself to the corporate metrics and sometimes that’s a difficult move when you’ve built up those relationships over many years and you have to kind of change over and focus on customers that may not know you or may not even like you. So that’s some examples of how we tie it up to the corporate metrics.

Margot Leong: And then let’s talk about your own team’s metrics as well. Let’s say like quarter to quarter. I’m curious about how you think about that too. 

Rhett Livengood: Yeah. You know, the operational metrics for the team, you have to bring it down into some type of deliverables, right? You can’t be too abstract.  There were sales metrics, how many sales references and, things like customer board of advisors, launches. There were a bunch of marketing asset generation, working with the marketing team, with the product teams, a lot of that was around launch or getting customers to do feedback. And then there were new stretch goals where maybe we were teaming or in my case, setting up a customer reference program at a partner that doesn’t have one. 

So that’s kind of the four areas of metrics, but they become operational there and that’s how you get work done day to day, but you got to spend the time upfront tying all that stuff to the metrics of your stakeholders and that’s sales, marketing and the product divisions. 

Margot Leong: And basically as long as you’ve been within this advocacy and customer engagement function, you’ve actually reported into sales, right. Which is not very common at all, so I’d love to hear about your experience working within this function. 

Rhett Livengood: Yes. So they moved the customer engagement team. It’s been in kind of our corporate marketing group, it’s been in the product divisions, it’s been in sales. And I think the key thing is it doesn’t matter where it is in the org. The question is, do you have a good supportive VP that values the work and supports the team? I think that’s probably more important than which group you’re in. 

Margot Leong: I think that is a very good point to make and having that support is incredibly important. I think it actually makes a difference between whether or not customer advocacy is seen as like only support-oriented or whether there is the ability to achieve that larger win-win mission that we were talking about.

Rhett Livengood: That’s why I mentioned earlier. That’s why we use so many outside vendors to really push a lot of what I call the tactical day to day work that takes so much time off the plates, so they can be strategic, take the time to be part of those meetings. And that’s how you raise your team members up.

Margot Leong: Yeah, absolutely. 

Rhett Livengood: But if you don’t take work off their plate, they just become a delivery machine and then a lot of them burn out and leave or move on to new roles. So that’s the thing you’ve really got to look out as a manager for the program. As you know, these jobs are easy to get burned out when sometimes the asset generation can be more than a hundred percent.

Margot Leong: Yeah, I think that’s a pretty hard part is the scalability of it, unless as you said, you’re able to leverage outside vendors or agencies to help you with a lot of this asset creation. I think customer marketing is typically pretty lean and mean in my experience and so I think that can be a struggle for a lot of people in this role. You can fall into a trap where, as we said, we’re just delivering assets versus we get to be more strategic.

And so I like what you’re talking about as that is one way to mitigate that, or potentially you have to think about how can I rely on other teams in order to do this? Where are the natural places where we can get help essentially?

Rhett Livengood: Yes, that’s right. Even though you think of Intel as a large company, we ran our whole program with four or five people and you can do that, but you want to have a good automated customer reference system. I mean, if you’re doing things manually, it’s hard to do, you know, if you aren’t using any outside vendors at all? I mean, you’re trying to do it all yourself. I think that’s problematic. I mean, yes, you can hire 85 or a hundred people. I know some programs where they’re that large. That’s great, but can you justify having a hundred heads when the business is great or it’s not so great or things change in your business? I think it’s good to have flexibility, but the key thing is I always wanted the teams to be strategic. That’s how you grow and that’s how you get the best people.

If they’re just tactical production machines, I find that the activity is seen as just, it’s almost like a low level manufacturing thing that has to be done. Like putting tires on cars, right? 

Margot Leong: Yes, exactly. It begs the question: how many customers are enough? Because if you have that big of a customer marketing team, which is amazing and great that you have the budget for that, it also means that the output that you’re generating is on this whole other level. And oftentimes I think that there has to be some pushback from our function in really understanding the strategic reason of why we’re doing this in the first place. We’re not just getting customers to get customers, we’re getting customers that will help the company ultimately achieve the business objectives for this quarter, or let’s say the next two quarters. 

I think that we shouldn’t be afraid to be more strategic and push back on other teams and try to help them understand that it’s gotta be sort of a relationship in which we understand why we’re being asked to do things. And then we also have our own input based off an understanding of what the business is going, what will be the best customers versus just being like, let’s do everything because yes, I totally agree. You just get stuck in producing  and this factory work, basically.

Rhett Livengood: Yeah. It’s a difficult balance and you want to hire the right people that can meet with sales, can meet with marketing. I mean, people change over time, you want to have the right skill set there. And I like to have a good senior skill set that really is managing their work like a business versus someone who is coming in with a part-time attitude and just get your work done and you’re off the clock. It’s definitely a different philosophy, but if you set it up correctly, you can really add value and grow the program because I think, and we both met these folks inside the company, they’re not sure what they want sometimes. Sometimes you have to help them out a little bit. 

Margot Leong: Totally. Yes. 

Rhett Livengood: So you want to make sure you’ve got that senior skillset that can “assist” them when they need it. 

Margot Leong: I’d love to hear about that a little bit more. What do you mean when you say this sort of senior skillset?

Rhett Livengood: Yeah. I always look for someone who has worked in both marketing and sales and understands sales and the pressure that they’re under and how the quota works and how behavior is really directed towards how you’re paid. And then also understanding marketing, being able to understand if the chief marketing officer is very focused on brand building, are they focused on consumer and they could care less about B2B? Are they focused just in new areas and not the old areas? Do they not really care about customers at all? And being able to at least have that experience from past jobs so they can make a read and add value when they meet with those people. 

I think that’s the key thing you’re looking for versus someone who is an expert in maybe generating the assets. It’s good to have that skillset, but that’s where I go back to the hub and spoke model. I think you can get the best agencies or your best partners to help you do that and stay current. You don’t have to be the best at that particular manufacturing, if you will, operation yourself. 

I think whether you’re a one person show or you’re part of a team, I think always striving to be more strategic and reaching out to your partners. If you just set aside some time to think about those things, I think you’ll be happier and more successful in this particular career.

Margot Leong: Another question I had was: what do you enjoy the most about this type of work? I know that you are no longer in specifically customer advocacy and engagement, but you’re working in a role that’s quite similar.

Rhett Livengood: Yeah, I’ve always been drawn to startup endeavors, so, whether that’s starting up our inside sales group or our services group, customer advocacy continues to change and is really this idea of incorporating customer feedback at many levels of the organization is very much, you know, startup-ish. So I like it. It’s new. It’s definitely very gray. It’s not for everybody, but I find it very exciting and no two days are the same. 

Margot Leong: That is very true. I think that it’s still relatively nascent for customer marketing, but more and more companies are really starting to see the value of it, and I love that.

Rhett Livengood: Yes. Yes. I agree. Well, good.  It was great spending time with you this afternoon.

Margot Leong: Yes, absolutely. It was wonderful having you on the podcast. Really appreciate it, Rhett, and take care.

Rhett Livengood: You as well. Thank you.